544
PARTISAN REVIEW
sionists looked back to Duchamp, as th e disillusioned an a lys t of th e
relati on between a rt today and o ther man-made things, and fo rward
to
Andy Wa rhol, as the artist ch a nged into a med ia celebrity and
manufacturer of a rt substitutes." Now it's quite cl ea r you h ave some
cl ear notion as to th e limits and poss ibiliti es of a rt such tha t you ' re
now say in g Warhol in th ese work i no t a n ani
l.
R osenberg:
I said h e was a manufacturer of art substitutes.
Tumin:
Now, are you not a bl e, if someone says, why is this an an
substitute and no t a piece of a rt, a re you not ab le to say why?
R osen berg:
Yes, th ere's a previous a rticl e on Andy Warho l which
explains why h e's a manufacturer of an substitutes.
Tum in:
In which you cl ea rl y state what a n art substitute is as aga inst a
pi ece of an?
R osenberg:
Oh , yes , and how h e became a media celebrity.
Tumin:
So you ' re not adverse to saying what a re the criteri a a piece of
art mu st meet in o rder to be ca ll ed a work of a rt?
Rosenberg:
No, no. I don't approach the problem tha t way.
T umin:
You a imed the problem th a t way by say ing h e's no t a n arti st
an y mo re.
R osenberg:
In my a rticl e on Andy Wa rho l I expl a in exact ly ""ha t he
does; wh y h e's accepted as an a rtist; what h e doesn ' t do . and how h e
should be eva luated.
Tumin:
And therefo re why you think h e's no t an ani st.
Rosenberg:
No, that's not importa nt. I agree with Goodman tha t's not
important.
Tumin:
"As the artist ch anges into med ia celebrity and manufacturer
o f art substitutes." You meant very po inted ly to say he's no lo nger an
artist.
R osenberg:
I was speaking o f a trend in a n , a ch ange in th e fi gure of
the artist. You want to pin me down to Warhol. A species of goss ip.
Tumin:
Tha t means to say a lso you have certa in to uchston es or
criteri a by which you ' re makin g tha t judgment. I'm no t go in g to
press you to make them expli cit. But why do you say, "No, I don 't
have an y gen eral ideas?" Wh y do you say tha t?
Rosen berg:
There's no genera l idea involved in th a t, there's just the
con crete idea tha t Andy Warhol rep resents a new kind of artist:
" Medi a celebrity and manufac turer of an substitutes." I like that
better than anything you're going to be able
to
drag o ut o f me.
Tumin:
But by what criteria? You obvious ly h ave criteri a, don ' t you?
Rosenberg:
Not necessarily. Maybe I just say it on an authoritarian
basis.
