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freedom wh en it's no t th ere. We know wha t could be done in Chil e
and Brazil. But we don ' t know wha t could be done here, because, in a
way, there isn 't much of a limita tion on freedom here. T he limita–
tion is from within . T here's no u se say ing tha t we' re all corrupted by
Genera l Motors, o r by televi sion , because you don 't have to be
corrupted by Genera l Mo to rs o r by television .
T umin:
Wha t, th en , would you say about such things as the Nati ona l
Endowment fo r th e Humaniti es, and the Na ti ona l Endowment fo r
the Arts, with th eir va ri ous grant programs (leaving as ide fo r the
moment the questi on of wh ether some of their judgments have been
good or bad )? In genera l, is the idea of providing grea ter resources for
a la rger number o f people, whom va rio us committees judge to be
reasona bl y good and p romi sing, is tha t good ? Or do you find th at a
dangero us movement in o u r government?
R osen berg:
I am studying those developments and I find th em in creas–
in gly suspect.
T umin:
Wh y?
R osen berg:
Because of developments in bo th the Endowments rela tin g
to politi cs. I'm speakin g o f the powerful ideo logy of anti -eliti sm
th a t's now being ta ken up in Washin g ton and whi ch is, culturall y
speaking, an equiva lent o f Sta lini sm . The a ttack on eliti sm is simpl y
a disgui sed fo rm o f anti-intell ectu a lism , and open s the door to every
po liti cian who wants to lay hands on money and jobs fo r hi s fri ends.
Now, th a t's dangerou s, beca use the art wo rld today is fin ancia ll y
very dependent on government mo ney and on corpo ra te money. And
when you begin
to
study concretely the influence tha t is genera ted by
those twO fo rms o f sponsorship , you have a lo t to be a larmed about ,
because of th eir na tura l interes ts in regard to an.
T umin:
Wha t about the WPA art program?
R osen berg:
Th e on e thin g th a t was good abo ut the WPA was its
lav ishness; the fact th a t it had no criteri a. Thi s I know will startl e
you , and make you un easy . Anbody tha t came a long and said he was
an artist, they put him on . On e arti st got to be a littl e better, someon e
else go t wo rse; maybe the la tter wasn ' t an a rti st a t a ll.
It
didn 't
ma tter-so long as there were no criteri a, the full weight of bureau–
cracy could no t be appli ed to any individua l.
T umin:
Earli er we were ta lkin g abo ut the poss ibilities o f wha t are the
bes t situa ti ons fo r tra inin g young peopl e in an , and you were
depl o rin g the sta te o f the universiti es. and you were say in g you don ' t
kn ow of a sin gle good uni vers it y art schoo l now, even th ough you
used to beli eve tha t a youn g person sho uld be tra in ed bo th in an and
